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> Romance?, it's a beautiful thing...
MrWaltz
post Jun 27 2009, 05:36 AM
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What do you guys think of romance in RPGs? I personally like to see it in games so long as it is well-implemented. Lots of RPGs tend to skip the chemistry between two characters and just make them love each other simply because they're friends and are of the opposite sex.

I like to see two characters bond throughout the length of a game and see how the relationship ends up by the time the conclusion is reached. When chemistry is made, players are immersed not only into the story but into the characters' minds as well.


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eggrollninja
post Jun 27 2009, 05:55 AM
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Personally I agree biggrin.gif

I always did hate it when they leave things like unanswered, and hate it even more when they release a sequel and its still unanswered mad.gif


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Elmer
post Jun 27 2009, 10:03 AM
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I'd like to find a RPG where as the game progresses, the guy and the girl hate each other more and more. Therefor, instead of
going up in there relationship, they're going down! biggrin.gif

Of course it wouldn't be an aggresive hate, more like a comedy-styled hatred.

Romance seemed to be a big issue in Legend of Zelda and yet, they didn't really play on it towards the end. Either that or i'm completely missing the message. tongue.gif


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Mr.M
post Jun 27 2009, 03:24 PM
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I plan to have a romance in my game but it is a hard thing to pull off. Not only does it require the player to actually believe those characters are real, they need to think that those 2 characters would actually get together. It's also hard to not make it cheesy.


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Oscarvarium
post Jun 27 2009, 06:31 PM
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Far too many JRPGs have the main character and the lead female character (who are either childhood friends or met completely by chance early on the game, no middle ground) getting together for absolutely no reason other than because they're the main character and the lead female. I often enjoy when a game features some relationship or romance between characters that aren't the lead, or that seem to involve the main character but end up not. Just mixing things up a bit instead of going for the obvious makes things a lot more enjoyable for everyone. tongue.gif


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Tubbs
post Jun 28 2009, 01:22 AM
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Romance can be done well and HAS been done well. The first things that come to mind are Final Fantasy 7 and 12. 7 was interesting because it left plenty to be interpreted. So instead of beating you over the head, you are left with the whole idea of how Cloud's mind might have been twisted after Aeris was murdered and to what degree that changed his relationship with Tifa, etc, etc. With 12, it went backward, as Ashe's love died in the opening scene, therefore instead of developing that love, the story just gave more character.

My biggest pet peeve about Final Fantasy 8 was how heavy handed they were with the whole love theme. It got to the point where it sounds like a Twilight inspired fantasy. Just...ugh....

If there is going to be relationships of that nature, emotion has to be emphasized. If the emotions seem fake or unrealistic, the concept falls flat on its face. The only point I can see of having a romance with out carefully planned and thorough plot developement is to make fun of the games that use the concept as a crutch.
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Retired-Pine
post Jun 28 2009, 02:59 AM
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How bout Xenogears? It tracks the relationship of Fei and Elly through their genes (and other complicated stuff) back to almost the very beginning of mankind on earth. It's a complicated affair full of twists...

Aaaaand! It's the only game where I've seen that the main love couple sleep together. There's this scene where they wake up together. Real shocking tongue.gif


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pynni
post Jun 28 2009, 12:38 PM
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I think that the best example for how romance should work in a game is Star Ocean: the Second Story, though I'm not convinced they pulled it off as best they could. However, the idea of building relationships throughout the game via side-events was amazing. There wasn't one concrete couple that the story had to follow, either. The main character COULD fall in love with the pretty girl he met by chance in the forest, or he can fall in love with the news reporter that was spying on his party. I'm going to be doing something similar in my game. I hope to improve on SO2's take on it.


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Mr Meow Meow Meo...
post Jun 28 2009, 10:28 PM
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I'm going to talk strictly rpg maker/relationships here. If you don't wanna read, just read the bolded line.

In terms of relationships, I think it's difficult for a lot of people to just make it up on the spot for their game. Relationships are complex, and 90% of RPG characters are what I would consider simple. With simple characters means simple relationships, so you get extremely unrealistic circumstances of random love. In order to fully emulate a real relationship, your characters have to first be real. I'm not talking complex backstory or anything, I mean personality wise, the couple have to be compatible. I'm going to tell you right now, that compatibility does not mean they share interests. The best relationships actually come from people who may be polar opposites, but find just one thing keeping them together. This is what I call a foundation of a relationship. The foundation of a relationship is the first thing the character takes interest in. From there you build in a "learn to love" type of development. Not all relationships work this way, but this is the best method of long term relationships. If they are both constantly in the party, then this works pretty well. Just make sure not to have them awkwardly be romantic at inappropriate times, because a lover is also your friend. It's okay for them to have a normal conversation without any feelings thrown around.

The above is just a guideline, and should not be taken word for word. You can add your own little twists, such as breaking up, or new love interests. Love triangles are a bit complex and usually never work out in a game, so I would avoid it. Especially when they're extremely predictable (main character and his best friend over the main female lead, or two or more females over the main character. Cliche as hell.). Personally I like to use my own relationships as a guideline for my characters. Have the two have things they like and don't like about each other, and have a good reason for them to be together. Let them kiss and have sex as many times as they want, because I really don't think the first kiss should be the only one in the game. If you find this to impede on the progress of the actual plot, I suggest you don't bother trying to develop a relationship between the characters beyond just close friends. Romance is a writing skill, and if you aren't prepared to fully develop the two scenarios of the relationship and main plot side by side, then you aren't prepared to have it in your game. You could always do the fairy tale simple love that many rpgs do, but it's going to leave your players unsatisfied. The point of romance is to give the player something to feel and relate to, so doing it wrong isn't going to cut it.


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The Almighty Tik...
post Jun 28 2009, 11:45 PM
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Call me Tiki. ;)
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QUOTE (Mr Meow Meow Meow Mix @ Jun 28 2009, 06:28 PM) *
I'm going to talk strictly rpg maker/relationships here. If you don't wanna read, just read the bolded line.

In terms of relationships, I think it's difficult for a lot of people to just make it up on the spot for their game. Relationships are complex, and 90% of RPG characters are what I would consider simple. With simple characters means simple relationships, so you get extremely unrealistic circumstances of random love. In order to fully emulate a real relationship, your characters have to first be real. I'm not talking complex backstory or anything, I mean personality wise, the couple have to be compatible. I'm going to tell you right now, that compatibility does not mean they share interests. The best relationships actually come from people who may be polar opposites, but find just one thing keeping them together. This is what I call a foundation of a relationship. The foundation of a relationship is the first thing the character takes interest in. From there you build in a "learn to love" type of development. Not all relationships work this way, but this is the best method of long term relationships. If they are both constantly in the party, then this works pretty well. Just make sure not to have them awkwardly be romantic at inappropriate times, because a lover is also your friend. It's okay for them to have a normal conversation without any feelings thrown around.


In my opinion, that's not a compatible relationship. Ask any love docter, and he'll laugh and deny that claim. They have to have similar interests, otherwise they won't be able to be work. An outdoorsy guy and a stay-at-home girl aren't simply going to work out because they're both say... social conservatives, or like pottery. The best relationships will have much more than "just one thing".

Now of course, just having similar interests isn't grounds for a good relationship either. I think of the best relationships as the same thing as being a best friend: both enjoying each other's company and interests.

It's difficult to do relationships, they're complicated. You really just have to have experience with them. The relationship I'm doing in my game is based off of one my friend recently had. XD


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Mr Meow Meow Meo...
post Jun 29 2009, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (The Almighty TikiShades @ Jun 28 2009, 05:45 PM) *
In my opinion, that's not a compatible relationship. Ask any love docter, and he'll laugh and deny that claim. They have to have similar interests, otherwise they won't be able to be work. An outdoorsy guy and a stay-at-home girl aren't simply going to work out because they're both say... social conservatives, or like pottery. The best relationships will have much more than "just one thing".

You were reading out of context, or you simply missed the point.
Interests and aspects of personality are two different things. A foundation is built on one's initial interest in that person's persona, which can either be a physical or personality trait. Around that foundation is the formation of other aspects they may find interesting, which will increase as they learn more about one another. Jon could say "I love you because you're kind, outgoing and cute". These are personality traits.
He could never say "I love you because we both like to go snowboarding". These are interests.
Sharing interests is a given, and having no shared interests would be hard to develop a relationship from. Hard, but possible. The problem with a lot of people is that they don't realize characters have the ability to change. Your outdoorsy guy can totally date the stay at home girl, as he may like her personality, his influence might cause her to try being outdoorsy as well.


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Cyrus
post Jun 29 2009, 04:54 AM
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Personally I'm not a fan of romance in RPG's, especially the way most of them are done. I would rather have an implied romance than a forced romance, that doesn't take center stage, it should be a small background story if anything but not a main plotline. I think most of them are too sappy or underdone. I'm not saying I hate the idea altogether but its just not my cup of tea.
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Lovejaw
post Jun 29 2009, 06:00 AM
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I can't think of many games where there was a romance involved that I liked, I mean Persona 2: Innocent Sin had that nice little relationship between Tatsuya and Jun but really the only reason why that looked any good at all was the "risk" and "shock" factor involved in having a homosexual couple.

Enchanted Arms had GOOD "romance" because it was light-hearted one-sided crush scenario.... I forget their names, the flamboyantly gay man and the "straight A straight hunky guy", and how the Gay one was just so overdone and cringe that you laughed and the fact that the straight guy was so put off by the other's advances that you felt sympathetic, and in the end, the gay man gets what he wants, albeit involving the straight man being held down by their mutual friend while he goes in for a kiss.

I hated Final Fantasy 8's romance, mainly because I hated Rinoa, she was just so... empty and 2-dimensional, in contrast Final Fantasy 6 did it wonderfully with the blossoming relationship between Locke and Celes, and how that tied into Locke's past with his girlfriend, suspended between life and death.

BiggestEd makes me want to play Xenogears now... that sounds really quite interesting.


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MrWaltz
post Jun 29 2009, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Meow Meow Meow Mix @ Jun 28 2009, 09:18 PM) *
The problem with a lot of people is that they don't realize characters have the ability to change. Your outdoorsy guy can totally date the stay at home girl, as he may like her personality, his influence might cause her to try being outdoorsy as well.


And with change comes character development, which is something most RPGs don't seem to do well. While the foundation of a relationship is established, developers don't go beyond that foundation and just decide whether two certain people love each other or not. I already said this in my first post, but there is never any chemistry and in turn, no character development. Take Grandia III for example (or 90% of JRPGs out there...). The male lead encounters the female lead and takes care of her and saves her from danger. By the end of the game, the male lead blurts out his love for the female lead, and I said to myself, "why?" The two characters didn't even bond, it was just a typical strong man/weak girl relationship. Instead of loving someone for who they are, by which I mean their personality, games have characters loving others because of their "role" in the game.

"Alright, this is the male lead.......and this is the female lead."

"Oh, are they going to fall in love?"

"Yes, of course, what else could happen between them?"

I'm not saying that's wrong...but you can't have two people falling in love for that reason alone. Like Meow Meow Meow Mix said, characters need to be realistic so a realistic relationship can be made, making it possible for players to relate to the situation.


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Weem
post Jun 29 2009, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Meow Meow Meow Mix @ Jun 28 2009, 10:28 PM) *
Love triangles are a bit complex and usually never work out in a game, so I would avoid it. Especially when they're extremely predictable (main character and his best friend over the main female lead, or two or more females over the main character. Cliche as hell.).


Lufia 2....... You fail.

QUOTE (Mr Meow Meow Meow Mix @ Jun 28 2009, 10:28 PM) *
Have the two have things they like and don't like about each other, and have a good reason for them to be together. Let them kiss and have sex as many times as they want, because I really don't think the first kiss should be the only one in the game.


Yeah, I'm just gonna ignore that part....

QUOTE (Mr Meow Meow Meow Mix @ Jun 28 2009, 10:28 PM) *
If you find this to impede on the progress of the actual plot, I suggest you don't bother trying to develop a relationship between the characters beyond just close friends. Romance is a writing skill, and if you aren't prepared to fully develop the two scenarios of the relationship and main plot side by side, then you aren't prepared to have it in your game. You could always do the fairy tale simple love that many rpgs do, but it's going to leave your players unsatisfied. The point of romance is to give the player something to feel and relate to, so doing it wrong isn't going to cut it.


....or at least come across cliche..... this is the smartest thing you've said here. Remember, cliche doesn't always mean bad - it means predictable and not memorable. Sometimes you want to be different in order to be memorable and unpredictable, but you cannot be "original" just to be original. As Touchfuzzy wisely said once, sometimes things are 'original' because nobody has been stupid enough to do it before. Don't be original just because - be original for a reason.


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The Almighty Tik...
post Jun 30 2009, 02:07 AM
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Call me Tiki. ;)
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QUOTE (Mr Meow Meow Meow Mix @ Jun 28 2009, 09:18 PM) *
You were reading out of context, or you simply missed the point.
Interests and aspects of personality are two different things. A foundation is built on one's initial interest in that person's persona, which can either be a physical or personality trait. Around that foundation is the formation of other aspects they may find interesting, which will increase as they learn more about one another. Jon could say "I love you because you're kind, outgoing and cute". These are personality traits.
He could never say "I love you because we both like to go snowboarding". These are interests.
Sharing interests is a given, and having no shared interests would be hard to develop a relationship from. Hard, but possible. The problem with a lot of people is that they don't realize characters have the ability to change. Your outdoorsy guy can totally date the stay at home girl, as he may like her personality, his influence might cause her to try being outdoorsy as well.


I got the point, but I was being nit picky. tongue.gif

But the way you worded it made me think of the "opposites attract," which doesn't actually work. Doesn't mean the opposites can't work together, but opposites aren't MORE likely to work out together.

But I simply misunderstood the quote. Nevermind! XP


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Mr Meow Meow Meo...
post Jun 30 2009, 06:31 AM
Post #17


Teh kitteh that moos
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QUOTE (weem @ Jun 29 2009, 01:28 PM) *
Lufia 2....... You fail.


Assuming I know what you're talking about is epic fail. I don't care if your rabid fanboyism took you over for a minute to make that post, but refusing to acknowledge the fact love triangles often fail is a bigger failure on your part. Have you even been in a real relationship? Because from your responses I would assume no. You have not reached the point in your life where you had a mature relationship. Clearly you aren't mature enough to be discussing this, as you were easily offended by the words "sex" and "kiss". If you're going to talk like you know better, I suggest you go and prove it with your own game. Otherwise don't flame down what was an intelligent discussion. And take your 4chan troll talk with you.
I lecture people once, and only once. Don't expect me to reply to you again.

Also TikiShades, I'm glad I was able to clear that up a bit. Remember not to take my analysis word for word, as relationships, situations and circumstances differ from person to person. I was giving people an idea of what would most likely lead to success, rather than have them attempt what is most commonly failed at.


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Cyl
post Jun 30 2009, 07:56 AM
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I want r0mance in games but if y0u're p0sting y0ur game here, y0u'll have t0ns 0f c0mments ab0ut them. (because i think that pe0ple here d0n't like l0ve st0ries as much as y0u 0r me 0r 0ther pe0ple.)

This post has been edited by Cylindrical: Jun 30 2009, 07:56 AM


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Weem
post Jun 30 2009, 02:43 PM
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rolleyes.gif I'm afraid you missing my Point, Mr Meow Meow Meow.... if I was trolling, you would be sure of it.

If you've never heard of Lufia 2, you should check it out. Many here will know that game well, and I mentioned it because it has a love triangle between the Hero, his best friend, and the female lead that the game's story is most remembered for. It is exceptionally well done. Plus, it's a classic that RPG fans should check out.

In terms of "mature relationships" I'm afraid you're going to eat crow on that one. I'm 26, married, and have 2 kids. The idea that "kissing" and "sex" makes me "uncomfortable" is beyond silly. I like them both actually.... laugh.gif I laughed at what you said for 2 reasons. 1 - it is rediculous to think of chibis being devious. 2 - stories usually develope the tension around the beginning of the relationship because it is frankly more exciting, more emotional, and beter charecter development. Kissing and having sex whenever throughout the story is almost never done in great pieces of literature for a reason.

Quite frankly, your last point is the correct one, as I said before. The problem is not the particular mechanics of a romance, but the WRITING. Love triangles, or sudden feeling of love, or whatever, is not the bad part. Cliche, even, is not bad. Poor writing is bad. If you're going to include romance (or any other major charecter-based mini-story) write it well. If you can't, don't waste your time. Great heroes with love for so-and-so female has been the main plot of many stories, and will continue to be for a long time. Many call this cliche, but whenever it is written well, it works. When you write, you cannot call something bad simply because it is predictable. You call something bad because it is not engaging, and many attempt to replace engaging with "everyone-likes-this-so-add-it" story. This is a bad idea.

I like romance in stories, if you can write it well, do it. If not, skip it.


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Diedrupo
post Jun 30 2009, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE (weem @ Jun 29 2009, 02:28 PM) *
Lufia 2....... You fail.


Huh? Lufia 2 had possibly one of the worst love triangles in a story ever. The main character and the main girl are already in a relationship at the start of the game, and then he pretty much gets attracted to another girl that he meets later and dumps his girlfriend. How the hell does anyone like that? Sure it occurs early on in the game, but I'd like to think most people would find it upsetting since it occurs essentially behind the scenes and for no reason.

Lufia 2 was still a great game, probably the best SNES RPG, but that was a really shitty subplot IMO. And i'd consider it evidence that romance should not be included in RPGs.

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It is exceptionally well done.

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