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> A balanced party., What makes them and how many kinds are there?
Pyro of Zen
post Nov 13 2011, 06:26 AM
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Hi, guys! Thought I'd have a go at asking y'all what everyone's favorite classes are. Also, I would like to ask what four classes would make a nice, fun and balanced party for everyone? I mean, no-one wants to play a party with four knights and no magicians...especially if magicians exist in the particular game they're playing. But no-one wants a party of four magicians either. But what are four great classes to have in any RPG game?

Four classes I like to use in a party are Soldier (or Knight), Rogue (or Thief, but I prefer Rogue because I don't like the use of a steal skill), Mage and Lancer. I don't know if this is balanced, but here's a little description. The Mage focuses on nothing but combat spells that do damage and debuff enemies. The Soldier focuses on brute force, unleashing regular attacks as well as combat skills which could inflict status ailments or have a certain element like fire and ice. Also the Soldier has a small variety of buffing skills which focus on raising allies' attack or defense power. The Lancer isn't quite a melee specialist like the Soldier. Though they use a melee weapon, they also have a small variety of healing spells and other buff spells which raise stats like spirit. Lastly, theRogue focuses on quick strikes, but not brute force. Fast enough to strike first, but not strong enough to defeat the enemy with that strike. I like to allow my Rogue characters to dual-wield with the option of daggers or one-handed swords (the exception being that one-handed swords can also be wielded by Soldiers, but don't hold the same attack-power as two-handed swords). This means that they do not have the option to use shields like the Soldier, so they have a little bit of a disadvantage somewhat like the Lancer and Mage, who all have low defense and HP (with the exception of the Lancer with second best HP after Soldier). The Rogue has a variety of skills which relate to their quick strikes. Things like extended hits which could allow the Rogue to attack up to 5 times or even 10 in a single turn, with a slight power decrease so as to not make the Rogue OP, but also not to make the skill useless. Each extra hit will allow for more damage than a regular attack, but that's a whole other story. The Rogue also focuses on buffs which raise allies' agility.

I find that this is a balanced party because, the Lancer, while having typical healing spells, isn't useful for only healing. They have the option to do attacks, and darn good ones at that. Not like in Final Fantasy games where the White Mage is only good for healing and can be killed in a matter of seconds within a battle. The exception is, when the Lancer uses a healing spell, they miss out on a turn...simple as that. Same as using items. The Mage is also a nice addition because they have elemental attacks which can have an advantage against certain monsters. While the Soldier might also obtain elemental skills, they don't have the high amounts of MP to execute as many of them as a Mage could, forcing the Soldier to almost ALWAYS attack. The Rogue makes a good addition for a couple of reasons. 1-They can speed up the battle by using agility buffs on allies and 2-They can also be quick to use items if needed (don't you hate it when you choose to use a potion on someone, but then a monster kills either the person who was going to use the item, or the person you chose to use the item on, in which case would cause the item be wasted someone else in the party who may, or may not have needed it). The Soldier is just there to be badass. Too good to use skills and so you don't have to spend minutes trying to choose a nice skill to use next. You know exactly what you want to do with a Soldier. Either buff him with a quick attack buff, or just let all out with attacks. Either way, the monsters are in for a lot of pain.

Tell me what classes (including hybrids like my White Mage/Lancer class) you think make a good balanced a party and give me some feedback on what I think makes a balanced party. Tell me if you can see some flaws in my party and maybe even what might make them better and more fun to use.


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hayaku13
post Nov 13 2011, 11:54 AM
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Well, that's a lot to read but oh well. It's descriptive so who am I to complain?

I personally follow your kind of party. Knight-Black Mage-White Mage-Rogue. For all I know, it's a perfect balance already. Knight is power, Black Mage is skill, White Mage is support while Rogue is agility. In every battle, they're the essentials. They complete it already.

It's not actually the balance you need to focus on, if you'll make a game. For me, it's all about each other's extras and flaws that connect to each other. Suppose A is a Knight but has low defense, and B is a White Mage but high on defense. Try to have characters that, when combined, forms a party that connects to each other. That way, it'll become a challenge for the players to make them tougher and at the same time, having some kind of distinction from each other.
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Pineapple
post Nov 13 2011, 03:46 PM
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You are forming the core group, started in Dungeon and Dragons.

You have your Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief. It's the building blocks foreverything, and really, it's all you need! Then you can 'upgrade' the classes to hybrids, such as a Paladin being mostly fighter with a bit of cleric in them. or Bard, being rogue and mage.

There is a reason we gravitate towards these core classes, they work well, we all know them, and they work.


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Thalzon
post Nov 13 2011, 04:23 PM
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Other good classes to establish:

Sorcerer - This is handy if you only want one magic-heavy party member. They do both offense and defense, leaving you with another slot in the 4-man party to do something creative.

Martial Artist - Has the fighter's power, the thief's speed, and the mage's defense.

Minstrel - Focuses on buffs and debuffs. Not terribly strong, but its skills often affect the entire party or enemy party (or both!)
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new
post Nov 14 2011, 12:45 AM
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i agree with pineapple, that's already the basic party. lancer and soldier? it seems like they only differ in equips but they're function are so same. i think i like the thief, compensating low attack by multi hits? lol. spellcasters are either healer, buffer, debuffer, damager. that can give you already 4 types of spell casters, unless you want to combine them. and yes, hybrids do open up new classes for the basic.

is your game just having 4 members all throughout the game? if i'll have only 4 members, really 4 of a kind would be boring like you said.. but what if each knights have their own specialties? and their skill animations are so cool? i can see a game of 4 knights overkill slimes LOL.

there really is no such thing as a balanced party, it's actually the battles you should balance. most likely the skills. most games here have poor game balancing.

if i had 4 members in a party, i'd have 1 healer, 1 assassin, 1 tank, 1 AoE. sometimes 2 healers are better.


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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 14 2011, 01:23 AM
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Well I have actually chosen a rather different party recently. Hence why I've created this topic. Because I'm not sure if my class choices are any good for a balanced game.

My new attempt at making a game is mostly about a series of crusade-like wars and most of the main characters are involved in these crusades. So naturally, they would be knights or warriors of some kind.

Well the main concept of each class I have is a brute force knight with high attack and medium defense as, a tank knight with medium attack and high defense as well as buff skills, a kind of paladin with healing skills and adequate attack and defense and lastly a sort of master of skills with a good amount of skills.

There are no spells in this game, as magic is highly punishable by death, much like the real-world's dark ages. However, magic does exist. Think of it as a knight vs mage game, where you're the knights.

The only thing is, each character can wield all weapons and armour, except for the main protagonist, who can dual-wield and so, cannot wield shields or two-handed weapons like greatswords and spears.

I feel like this is a really bad combination of classes. It feels like it's either too OP or not OP enough. And it keeps itching my brain.


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new
post Nov 14 2011, 01:44 AM
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nah,it's good. there are many movies that only have knights in them and they pawn. like i said, just make sure you have a flashy battle system. if you're just gonna use demo skills and animations from let's say tankentai, that game wouldn't be good. if you're gonna use YEM, just be sure you have real melodies being used.

if it's gonna be knights vs mages, i think it would still come out good. dont always match your game with the standards, if you keep doing that you'd be stuck. always do what you want, it's your game, and you would likely share it with others.

so your 4 knights - brute, a tank, a healer, and skiller. the way i see it, the brute would have explosive skills taking down enemies in one blow. the tank should have provoke and shield skills like stuns and breaker skills. the healer would of course heal and give party buffs. the skiller will obviously be a dual wielder with all the utility skills, and is able to shift to long range.


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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 14 2011, 02:30 AM
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I don't like the default VX battle system. I prefer side view and I've used Tankentai for as long as I can remember. But I don't use any of the skill action sequences that came with the demo. If I ever need to make a skill which would need an action sequence besides "NORMAL_ATTACK", then I will create one, but this is usually only when I'm making a skill that does multiple attacks. I'm not too good at creating skills anyway. I don't want to make too many for each character, but I don't want to make too little...I have no idea how many to make or what kinds of skills to make...

It's frustrating really...


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new
post Nov 14 2011, 03:19 AM
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you only need to create multiple skills in the database when there are level ups of skills. well for me, as a designer, i'd just give each char a max of 10 skills. also, it'd be great if each character have their own normal attack sequence. just remember the purpose of damage skills are because they deal more damage than the normal attacks, it's for a faster skill at the cos of MP. adding the overdrive system would also be cooler. multiple overdrives FTW.

avoid generic names for skills, and avoid very very absurd skill names. let's say for the brute char. 1 skill high damage, low acc. 1 skill target all. 1 skill multi hit single. 1 skill damage+inflict state. 1 skill HP cost deals heavy damage. 1 skill absorb damage. that's 6 normal skills, then make 4 overdrives. level 1,2,3,4.

if you want the tank to have a purpose, give it provoke and protect, and also make sure enemies have deadly skills that really need to be directed to the tank. make the enemies also call other enemies into battle. one step at a time.


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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 14 2011, 03:30 AM
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I prefer not to use Overdrives. However, I might think about it.

When you say avoid generic names, do you mean to tell me to avoid names like Fire, Fira, Firaga? Or Just the plain Poison Blade, Double Attack etc? I mean either way, I'm not using any of those names. When I do have magic skills in my game, I give them latin names. Fire would be Ignis, Ice would be Gelus. So on so forth. I don't make melee skills with latin names, though. A multiple-hitting skill would be called Ravage (usually a three-hit skill). I mean it doesn't sound absurd, does it?


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Thalzon
post Nov 14 2011, 04:37 AM
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Sounds a lot like SMT's naming system (except they use a different language -- Hebrew, I think). Works fine.
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new
post Nov 14 2011, 05:28 AM
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you have nice naming for skills.. well some absurd would be like "Super duper mega terra omega triple killing slash" or maybe "feel my wrath" names.. well yes, generic i mean, most likely the RTP skills, unless your really are going for the classic its okay to use those. people use classic when they don't like to put much description on what the skills does or its really just a classic gameplay.. when you see a skill named poison blade/attack its easy to say "oh this inflicts poison".


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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 14 2011, 05:30 AM
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@Thalzon I just prefer Latin names for spells because Fire/Fire II/Fire III is too bland and Fire/Fira/Firaga is used way too much because Final Fantasy is such a popular game. I just wanted something which is just a little unique. Not many people use latin names for spells so I chose to do latin.

I mean even one of my game worlds is based off latin words. It's called Novva Tempus. While Novva isn't latin, it's just the word Nova with an extra v, Tempus (according to google translate) is latin for Era. And I got that from the song "Nova Era". And the name Novva Tempus sounds good for the name of a game world, doesn't it?

Latin is a good language if you want to create names for things.

@new Yeah I figured that's what you meant by absurd names. I would give my state-skills names like Poison Blade/Attack, mostly because it's just simple and makes out that the weapon gets drenched in a poisonous liquid or something. But other skills like buffs. It kind of gets a bit more complex. I don't like the whole "Attack Boost" for a skill which boosts attack. I prefer "Warcry". Sounds a bit more interesting, and kind of gives you an idea for what it does. At least I think it does. And then maybe a stronger version of that skill could be called "God's Voice" even though that does sound slightly absurd. It's still the same basic concept...the character roars and their attack goes up. I dno. I prefer to only have one buff for each stat.

This post has been edited by Pyro of Zen: Nov 14 2011, 05:44 AM


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Anna
post Nov 14 2011, 04:51 PM
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I stopped using ranks for spells (Such as Fire I/II/II) a little while ago. If spells already is based on one or more stats the player does not really need upgraded version of spells when they can just get better equipment that improves the damage/healing.

Personally I would like to go with this party setup: tank, healer and then as many damage dealers as possible. For some fights you may want two tanks or two healers depending on the mechanics. Of course there is a need of aggro/odds script to have tanks. I also use a certain script which allows spells to be instant cast or have cast time which allows for more unique play styles for each character. Some spells requires a state to be there, and this state is randomly triggered by using other spells.

To do tanking, healing or damage I would want the players to use a wide range of spells, not just spam one particularly spell through the combat. Managing resources (such as mana, states or rage) is important too.

I uses five classes for my game at the moment; Paladin, Priest, Wizard, Rogue and Battle Mage.

The Paladin is the main tank and they have a choice to either go offensive or defensive in each battle. They gain offensive or defensive holy strength whenever they use an offensive or defensive ability. When they reached a certain level of offensive or defensive strength they can Unleash this strength to either deal high damage to enemies or to restore mana to all party members.

Priest is the healer. They have a wide range of healing and buff spells. They can choose one party member and then for each healing spell they use (on anyone) this chosen party member gets healed as well. All of their healing spells uses a large amount of mana, so mana management is needed.

Wizard uses the different elements (fire, ice, water e.t.c) to deal damage. Their fireball spell puts a damage over turn effect on the monster, they got a static shock ability which puts a debuff on a monster and whenever this monster uses an ability they take damage because of static shock. Each element damage spell is different from each other, but they all do damage in one way or the other.

Rogue uses combat points (stole that idea from WoW!), each ability puts a combat point on a monster and some damage spell is based on how many combat points is there on the target. Other than that they uses various different melee strikes which all are different from each other.

The Battle Mage can choose to tank, heal or deal damage and they can change their role through the combat. They uses the arcane element to do damage, healing or damage. For example they can get into a defensive stance reducing their health to 1 but they become immune to damage for one turn. They can also use a healing buff put on all party members healing everyone at the end of each turn who have not taken any damage. They can also put healing over turn effect on party members as well as instantly revive people (without using a turn for that).

I try to make every class unique and also open up for different ways of playing each class. This also allows me to make fun and very challenging encounters with bosses and monsters.
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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 14 2011, 06:51 PM
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Whoa, those are some complex skills. It must involve a lot of scripting for the skills alone!

I've also recently come up with a new question (but didn't want to start a new topic as I will feel like I'm spamming even though I'm not) on what you all think about equipment systems.

When I say "equipment systems" I mean, what would you prefer: Individual equipment which can be optionally equipped by the player, or upgrade systems which allow the player to go to blacksmiths to upgrade each piece of their equipment separately, using money and/or resources to do so. Lacking in resources can cause the blacksmith to refuse as he may not have his own. I'm also thinking of a way of getting the blacksmiths to store resources that you sell to him for spare money, but later on, if you want to upgrade, it will still cost money, but you will not need the resources which are already stored.

There are a few good things about upgrade systems. 1-if a character has a specific look, they will keep that look (it looks weird when a sprite with steel platemail is wearing a tunic, right?) but still gain the stat bonuses. 2-many warriors learn one kind of fighting style, which may be focused on one kind of weapon. For my characters, I'm thinking the rogue wields two sabres, the tank wields a greatsword, the paladin wields a bow and my newly-created dark-knight wields a spear. (the dark knight is basically the opposite of the paladin. Instead of healing skills and positive buffs, they use damaging skills and negative buffs...a black mage--warrior hybrid like the paladin is a white mage--warrior hybrid)

Both, the Paladin and Dark Knight classes have lower attack and defense...also the Spirit parameter is no longer Spirit, it's finesse. Skills are going to be based on Finesse--since magic isn't used by the controllable characters--instead of Attack. This way the more physical classes are granted higher-damaging regular attack while the other two are granted higher-damaging/healing skills.

A bit of a modification. The only skills the rogue have are multi-strike skills (which, since the rogue's Finesse will be low, will do less damage than normal attacks with each hit) as well as the speed buffs, but no longer any attack buffs.

The tank is granted defense buffs and also a debuff which lowers defense (but only the weaker of the two kinds) as well as a provoke skill, a protect skill (if I can find a script which allows the tank to take a hit for a fellow part member) and beserk state skill. I'm also thinking of a damaging skill which causes the immobilize state (think of it as the tank slicing a leg off of the enemy) which causes the afflicted to miss one or two turns. Basically a delay skill with bad accuracy (because if it can guarantee a hit every turn, it would kind of be unfair).

The paladin is lucky, with every form of buff. Attack, Defense, Finesse, Speed. As well as first-aid skills which heal allies. A few light-based damaging skills which are weak, unless used against undead (which can be summoned by enemy necromancers).

Reminiscing on what I said before, the dark knight is the opposite of the paladin. Instead of every form of buff, it's every form of debuff. They will also get state-afflicting damaging skills. Most likely poison, sleep and silence (or whatever name I decide to give the silence state as magic isn't a problem for the protagonists). And also an absorbing skill and a skill which only does damage to MP--which I will be renaming EN (short for Endurance or Energy).

I think that makes for a few good classes. I mean the rogue will get maybe 5 or 6 (depending on the amount of multi-strike skills I give them, I'm thinking 3), the tank will get 5 or 6 (6 if I decide to add the immobilize skill. 5 with immobilize, but only if I can't find a protect script like I described), the paladin will get between 10 and 15...quite a lot, but that's what you get from mage-like classes and the dark knight will get around 13. Still a lot, but not as much as the paladin (maybe).

I'm sorry about my enormous walls of text. I'm a writer, so I'm kind of used to giving as much detail as I can. I also hate missing details, so I encourage people to ask questions if they don't understand anything. Of course, I don't think this will be a problem here...I mostly only ask for people to ask questions when I put a topic in the script support or request forums, since they tell people off for not giving enough detail.

But anyway, still keep in mind, I asked the question: What do you prefer, the upgrade equipment system or the typical individual equipment system?

And of course, give me some feedback on my little skill build for each of my four classes.


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The cool guy
post Nov 14 2011, 07:11 PM
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You could mix it up so that you buy new weapon BUT have to customize to get a good use of it.
You might also consider to add in more characters and let the player choose him/herself. just my opinion.
Add in some bad character that the party later learns is a mage. PLEASE
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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 14 2011, 07:29 PM
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I couldn't do the whole "Choose your character" thing, since each of my four characters are crucial to the story line in their own way. I would add more characters...I might add some cameo minor characters which might join the party for a short, one-time only period, but I dno. Since the four protagonists are involved in crusade wars, I might let one of their higher-ranked allies join temporarily like their captain or general or something. But only until the entire party is fully formed. A lot of the beginning of the game is gonna only involve two of the protagonists anyway before the other two come in. And I can't make one of the protagonists a mage, either, because that would cause them to be sentenced to death immediately. And if the other three protagonists do something to help them, they will also be sentenced to death for either associating and aiding a mage or by being accused of being mages themselves.

That's just how the dark ages are in my game, as well as how they were in real life. Witchcraft was just not something brushed off like in Final Fantasy. Even if magic wasn't real, a lot of people were killed in many different ways such as burnt at the stake, hung, drowned or pushed off cliffs (they believed that if the person was really using witchcraft, they could fly or get out of the water...in which case, they would be recaptured and burnt at the stake. If they couldn't, they would die anyway, in which case, the people believed god would take their souls for being honest mortals...I, however, think it was just as cruel as justice systems today. While they don't involve people accused of witchcraft, they do involve people accused of murder. Many innocent people still go to jail or are forced to plead guilty because fighting the case would cause them to go to jail for a longer period. It's always been like that. While the majority of GUILTY criminals are still out there, untouched and barely even seen by the justice system)


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new
post Nov 14 2011, 11:52 PM
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a paladin wields a bow ?? and has berserk? its very off..

also, any equipment system is okay.. as long as you can handle doing the database and balancing. redundant items are just lame for the sake of having lots of customizations but during the game you'll only be using 3 out of the 100 made? many people make this mistakes.

i have like 3 upgrade scripts - OECS, tomoaky card slot, SW enchant scroll. if it's about upgrading, it really depends on you. just look at its impact on the gameplay. if you just want it or aesthetic purposes, you'l just be making a mistake adding it to your game.

idiv items where you can hunt them down is okay. but for your game, i think fixed equipment would be better. i mean they're knights already! just use a script that upgrades their weapons and armors with them. it will be really cool and its not a classic style. i forgot the script that uses this. equips level up with their characters. that immediately lessens the things to do in the database. here's the script

This post has been edited by new: Nov 15 2011, 01:28 AM


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Pyro of Zen
post Nov 15 2011, 12:41 AM
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Note that Rogue, Tank, Paladin and Dark Knight are just guidelines to what kind of skills an purposes my classes have. The class names I am using are really soldier ranks in the Crusades of my game. The Rogue is Turin, the Tank is Rhynon, the Paladin is Qualid and the Dark Knight is Craen. Just because I called em basic class names at first, doesn't mean that they are those basic, typical classes. And who says a Paladin can't wield a bow, anyway? All kinds of knights and warriors of the medieval ages wielded bows. Though the groups who stood in the back lines who casted those deadly rain of arrows down on the enemies were mostly made up of people who weren't quite physically capable to wear heavy armour or swords. So they stayed at the back and used their best attribute...precision. My Qualid is a female, and a very weak one at that (nothing sexist, it's just that she grew up as a typical female peasant, doing regular house work and nothing which would build muscle) and so she wields a bow, symbolizing that she is better off a distance from her enemies (even though this is moot in a sideview battle system like Tankentai).

Also, I didn't say the Qualid (Paladin) had the berserk skill...the Rhynon (Tank) does. He is going to have a protect skill which only let's him guard an ally from physical attacks. Add the berserk status to a mage, and you get insta-protect from all magic from the afflicted mage. And since mages will have low attack, the Tank will almost always take little to no damage. Handy, eh? The exception is that he can only cast protect on one ally during a single battle (the state will last until he dies, but continues no matter what state he has afflicted to him, but he can't execute a protect action when asleep or something, so it will still be cast, but only applied when he can move) and also it costs a lot of MP (or EN the new version of MP for my game).

I also think I'll stick with an upgrade system, because if the armour and weapons grow with the characters, there's no price to it. And in reality, when you bash plates of steel with sharp, strong objects, the plates and sharp objects don't get any stronger, they get weaker. Hence upgrades. I'm not going to make a durability system...I hate those and they kill a game big time because you have to keep going back and forth between battles to rebuild your armour, slowly draining your money to 0. So no durability system. But anyway, an upgrade system. This way, the armour and weapons' growth will have a price. Not only money-wise, but resource-wise too. This way when the ultimate upgrade comes along, you just can't grind on random enemies until you get the amount of gold needed to buy the upgrade for the most ultimate equipment. So obviously the ultimate equipment are gonna require high-quality and unique resources. That's what balance is. You add one to one pile, you must take from another. An eye for an eye. That's why typical mage classes have low attack but high magic, low hp but high mp. Because balance is in effect. If there is no balance, it becomes either overpowered or underpowered. A knight with high stats in all parameters would be too OP, because they would not be vulnerable to much. A mage with low stats in all parameters would be dead in a single turn.

It's the same with items and equipment. Items which recover more of something or equipment which add more to a parameter would cost more than ones that do half the effect of the higher costing ones.

I have an idea on balance in a way, but not in total balance. There are plenty which still leave me stumped, which is why I created this topic.


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new
post Nov 15 2011, 01:40 AM
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you say in reality equips get run out of durability so you dont want equip leveling in game? weird, but its just a game, and its your game. so you decide on it. why shouldnt a TANK wield a BOW? bows are long ranged weapons, how can one tank if she is to attack from a distance? of course they can wield bows, i ve watched many medieval war movies. and one of the best knights are the one that uses bows with a hawk as a pet.. but still melee knights close combat still pawns of them all.

casting berserk on a mage is indeed true for many games since they'll be forced to use only physical attacks. if i'll make a tank, they should have 'return damage' skills too. and obviously a charging skill that is casted after x turns to deal heavy damage.. similar to praying then cast holy smite.

and what about your upgrades? its like peasant clothes to chainmail to mithril armor? lol, that's classic. if you watch movies, do they even change up equips like that? like i said, its your game, but don't confuse things this what happens in real, this should happen in game. it'll confuse you more. if you mean by upgrades you want gem sockets, +1 +2 refining on items, that be okay.. question again, is there such thing in real life? do equips get a +n on their names? so making a logic when armors get hit, they get weaker, then state another thing like that contradicts your statement.

you wont prolly think of using the card slot system, since monsters don't drop cards.. so simply, i understand, you just want to have a blacksmith npc where the party talks to upgrade their equips when they get some gold in the progress of the game.

you could check this

This post has been edited by new: Nov 15 2011, 01:41 AM


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